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Ratings without merit !

Don Jette Don Jette Tue 14 Jan 2003 22:41

#1 Ratings without merit ! closed

I believe most of us have a good idea how the rating system works in the PhotoForum, and that is why I am writing this post. When someone post a
photograph in the rating area. it is my belief that the system is more than just
a numerical rating. I'm sure no one expects to get 10's all the time, and certainly I do not. What does trouble me is if someone is to give a low rating in a specific area of the photograph it would be a professional courtesy to critique and give specific reasons as to why you scored an area of the photograph low, and give the photographer constructive ways to improve the photograph. Numbers mean nothing without letting someone know what your actual thoughts are, because ratings without written critique have little merit toward educating and improving
a given photographers work. Certainly I have done and will do the same for you !



Mario Saquel Mario Saquel reply on #1 from Don Jette Thu 16 Jan 2003 16:39

#2 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

I'm agree with you Donald. Ratings "must have" a comment or a writen critique. That is so easy to programm and will help to all of us.



Sandra Battaglia Sandra Battaglia reply on #2 from Mario Saquel Sat 18 Jan 2003 07:13

#3 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Thank you, Donald, for raising an issue that has been on my mind. I learn from my mistakes, but in the rating section there is invariably someone (one person ?) that gives such very low marks, but does not give ways to improve my shots. This could almost be construed as deliberate sabotage for what ever reason.
As you and Mario say...if a photo is in such need of improvement, than constructive criticism would only help...if the person that gives such low ratings has the ability to do so. smile
Mario, I agree. If a photo receives much lower marks than what other people have posted it should be mandatory that a reason/explanation is given or their ratings will not count. smile
Let me add however, that there will always be this type of behavior...and though I would like the world to be perfect, I guess it won't be. smile ))



Viktor Glumskov Viktor Glumskov reply on #3 from Sandra Battaglia Sat 18 Jan 2003 09:10

#4 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Russian :

Ya hotel byi prisoedinit'sya k zamechaniyam , vyiskazannyim Donaldom, Mario i Sandroj. Yetot zamechatel'nyij forum - v pervuyu ochered' i glavnyim obrazom obrazovatel'nyij , vozmozhnost' podelit'sya svoim videniem mira i po-uchit'sya u drugih. Ego "sorevnovatel'naya" sostavlyayus'haya lish' dobavlyaet k yetomu nemnogo perca ... Poyetomu , na moj vzglyad , ves' institut "skryityih chlenov- ( hidden member) nuzhno byi ubrat' ,t.e posle okonchaniya nedel'nogo sroka uchasnik , ch'ya fotografiya ocenivalas' , dolzhen poluchit' polnyij dostup k informacii o critikah. Esli kto-libo vo vremya ocenki stavit nizkij ball ( 1...2..3 ) i ne zhelaet obosnovyivat' svoe mnenie - chto zh, kak minimum , u menya budet shans zaiti i posmotret' , chto dannyij kritik polagaet za ideal... Prosto : esli u tebya est' construktivnyie kriticheskie zamechaniya - napishi! A esli tebe prosto ne nravyatsya photo zvetov/ nasekomyih/ sim-vesen i tak dalee - razvernis' i ujdi... pisat' "Zdes' byil Vasya " vovse ne obyazatel'no!


English :

I add my voice to Donald's,Mario's and Sandra's ones! My suggestion is to cancel the instition of "the hidden membership" at all. This awesome forum is the first and foremost edicational one - to share your vision of the world and to learn from the diversity of the visions... The competional component is just a bit of salt not the main meal. In my mind , all the names of the critics should be uncover with the end of the week period. So , if someone is to shy to write his/her reasons for his/her low rating - at least I'll get a chance to have a look what he/she regards as an ideal photographs... If you have any constructive notes about a photo - write them down... but if you just don't like flowers/insects/sunsets/b&w/Photoshop etc - simply leave the photo alone!



Admin Admin reply on #3 from Sandra Battaglia mon 20 Jan 2003 13:03

#11 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Sandra Battaglia wrote:
>
> Thank you, Donald, for raising an issue that has been on my
> mind. I learn from my mistakes, but in the rating section
> there is invariably someone (one person ?) that gives such
> very low marks, but does not give ways to improve my shots.
> This could almost be construed as deliberate sabotage for
> what ever reason.

I have checked your ratings, you are mistaken, the most (85%) of your ratings below "5" /good/ given by different persons. Besides I want to say that really we have not "bad" ratings in photorating: "1" means "for family album", "3" means "etude", "5" means "good". I think the most of us can not say that all our photos more than "good". The scale of ratings is not uniform, really we have only one poor rating: "1" - low level, from 2 to 4 - mean level, from 5 to 10 - high level.



Admin Admin reply on #2 from Mario Saquel mon 20 Jan 2003 12:46

#10 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Mario Saquel wrote:
>
> I'm agree with you Donald. Ratings "must have" a comment or a
> writen critique. That is so easy to programm and will help to
> all of us.

This theme is regularly visible here (in Russian version too). I have answered already in Russian version and repeat here: we have tried this during 3 months near 1 year ago: if the rating differents from average of the photo the critiquer must write a comment. And we had a lot of (about 10000) comments like "!!!" or "!!!!!". May it helps you? I guess not. If somebody do want to say nothing he will not say. Besides some people has a problems with English (I guess you also have a problem with Russian?). If somebody do not like some hidden comments or anonymous ratings he can upload in the section "discussion". It's so simple: 2 different ways - 2 different sections.



Mario Saquel Mario Saquel reply on #1 from Don Jette Sat 18 Jan 2003 13:30

#5 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Thank you for the added comments. I know, for my own experience that there are a single valid reason for not adding comments: "The language". for example, it is very difficult for me to express myselfe appropiately in English. The russian is a language of which I don't understand absolutely anything. It is amazing how my pictures are critiqued for people around the all world, in english or russian. The lenguage of the photography is very technical and many times I feel unable to express an smart opinion in English or russian lenguage. But in the case of the ratings I think that the author of a picture deserves to know (at least) that behind the numbers there is a thinking being that he is also expressed. I have appealed a lot to the words "I like it" because I know is a universal valid reason when I don't find the appropriate words. In any way, in a global world doesn't care if a person is expressed well or bad or manage the technical terms of a specialized language; what it cares is to know that he/she has an opinion. I will already get the way to know the meaning of the words. In any event I should say something: In the whole net I have not found a place better than this to learn about the art of photography. This place, with all its deficiencies, continues being the best and I owe what I have been able to grow in this art.

Thanks



Viktor Glumskov Viktor Glumskov reply on #5 from Mario Saquel Sat 18 Jan 2003 15:22

#6 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

English:

Mario,
you're right , a language is some trouble. But I tend thinking that the VERY FACT of the comment -whatever language it has been written with, is worth by itself. After all, if you really keen to find out what all of these letters about - you can always find someone on this Forum , who could help you with the translation:)

Russian :

Mario,
tyi prav, yazyik dejstvitel'no mozhet byit' neudobstvom. No ya vse-taki polagayu, chto v dannom sluchae vazhen SAM FAKT nalichiya kommentariya - vne zavisimosti ot togo , na kakom yazyike on napisan. V konce konce , tyi vsegda mozhesh' poprosit' kogo-nibud' na Forume pomoch' s perevodom smile



Sandra Battaglia Sandra Battaglia reply on #6 from Viktor Glumskov Sat 18 Jan 2003 20:36

#7 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Except for the unexplained lowest ratings, I don't mind the 'hidden members.' I think it allows other photographers to honestly rate a photo...'honestly' being the key word. smile
My ratings have been far from perfect which is good. It allows me to go back and try to look at my photos through other people's eyes and to see where there is room for improvement.
If the critic's were visible they might give higher marks, which would not be of any great value. smile
I agree with Mario. Despite these little annoyances, this site is still the best that I have found. smile )



Don Jette Don Jette reply on #7 from Sandra Battaglia Sun 19 Jan 2003 06:15

#8 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Yes.. Sandra I agree with you, anonimity is important in the begining phase of rating. But please leave a comment for low ratings, thats all I ask. Who gave the rating is not as important as why you give the rating, Good or bad! And Sandra I agree that some people just like to sabbotage the the system..why I do not know.
If you are that good..share your thoughts, if you are just trying to be "funny"..
let me tell you we take our work seriously and ask for the respect that we all deserve..if you cannot give that respect then, don't try to hurt those of us that do.



Maria Oliveira Maria Oliveira reply on #8 from Don Jette Sun 19 Jan 2003 19:55

#9 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

I agree with all of you! But I have to say that I realized there`s some people who don`t like honest opinions. So, I decided to look at the pictures (of course, I miss many of them because I can`t be always doing that) and only comment or rate those ones, I really like. Sometimes, I give a suggestion, but in thoses cases, if it needs great improvment, I don`t rate it. As Sandra said above, world is not perfect and surely is not my intention to change it. Not in this way. That`s not the right place to do that. It would be too hard and it could hurt me. So, unless I know a little bit of someone`s work, I just "don`t have" opinion. Why this? Some days ago," someone" behind a strange mask, decided to show me something about human nature (which of course, I know, already, a little bit!). Someone named Gras Fish did a (good) comment and gave negative pluses to one of my photos and just one! Until that moment he hadn`t did any kind of comments to any other photos, just mine! I asked him to tell me why he found the picture so bad. I had no answer! So, that`s the way it is. You do not know people and there`s always strange minds and strange behaviours. I just gave up to understand it. Because I really think this was a kind of revenge of someone (of course, with another name!) who didn`t like my opinion... or my rate! Oh!... I never hide my name!



Admin Admin reply on #7 from Sandra Battaglia mon 20 Jan 2003 13:18

#12 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Sandra Battaglia wrote:
>
> Except for the unexplained lowest ratings, I don't mind the
> 'hidden members.' I think it allows other photographers to
> honestly rate a photo...'honestly' being the key word. smile

Sandra, probably you remember that we had not "hidden" comments (and hidden ratings) some weeks in November. And what we had? Somebody (N1) upload his photo in photorating. His friend (N2) rate it low, he rated the photo, he did not know the author (N1) and comment it. The closed ratings becomes opened, the hidden comments becomes visible. N1 can see that his friend (!?) rate his photo low. N2 said: "Sorry, but I have rated honestly the photo, I did not know who is the author!". N1 said: "Ah! But it was mine, our friendship is finishing".
Do we need it?



Don Jette Don Jette reply on #12 from Admin mon 20 Jan 2003 20:42

#13 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Thank You for your comment to my post in the forum. I realize that many of my photographs do receive good ratings, the intention of my post was not to complain, but to evoke dialog from the

Photographer’s on their insight and expertise to help other photographers and myself become better at what we do. I always give a complete critique to other photographers as a professional

courtesy of their work. My point was not so much about the “Numbers” or whether a photograph

is Good or Bad, rather your photograph is “Good”, “But” (the key phrase) it could have been better,

if it were a little sharper, changed your point of view, etc…

Even still I would like to commend you on having an “Excellent” website..it is well done easy to use and nothing like I have seen before, it is a tremendous amount of work to put together and maintain such a site, it is a tribute to your love of photography and your fellow photographers.

I have seen other photography related sites and they fall way short of the vision you have!

They are OK, maybe even “Good” if they were not so commercialized, offered feedback, and a person like you who takes the time to write back to someone post.





Sincerely,

Donald Jette

a.k.a Donje



Don Jette Don Jette reply on #6 from Viktor Glumskov mon 20 Jan 2003 20:51

#14 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

I have found language not to be a barrier to reading comments, I found a website
that does translations for free, and I enjoy translating the comments..who knows I may even learn Russian language someday.


Я нашел, что язык не будет барьером к показанию комментариев, я нашел страницу Интернета, которая делает переводы бесплатно, и я любю переводить комментарии .., кто знает, что я могу даже изучать русский язык когда-нибудь

http://translation2.paralink.com/

I hope you find this helpful !

Я надеюсь, что Вы находите настолько полезным!



Robin Stirling Robin Stirling reply on #1 from Don Jette Thu 24 Apr 2003 11:50

#15 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

This is still hapening today 24th April 2003 with most critics having no comment on why they scored that way nor any suggestions on how to improve on the Work.



Danny Danny reply on #1 from Don Jette Sat 14 Jun 2003 06:19

#16 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Why not post and turn the ratings off. Its real easy smile ), or do you like numbers.

Danny.



Aaron Whitney Aaron Whitney reply on #16 from Danny Sat 21 Jun 2003 06:03

#17 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

What gets me most upset is when your photo gets trashed in the ratings for being a "family album" shot. Even when you have it listed in the "family album" catagory. What do people think is supposed to go in there? Still lifes of Turnips? Some of us like to see what others are doing in photography, using those people most dear to them. I can understand someone having a problem with you puting a family photo in a wrong catagory, but don't bash a family photo when it is in the "family album" catagory. I thought we were all here to make all aspects of our photography better by helping each other. Thank you, and Goodnight now.

Click
Aaron



Graham Hk Graham Hk reply on #17 from Aaron Whitney Tue 24 Jun 2003 06:48

#18 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

This is an awkward subject.
There are many photographs and often little time.
The number system allows for a quick summation of feeling.
While the number system is not perfect it does allow/generate feedback.
However, perhaps it could be that every month one photo' is chosen to be a 'guinea-pig'. A photo' that we can all download and improve to our way of thinking - cropping, changing various values, and so on - with the aim of uploading our version to a special area within the forum for further comment.
This 'guinea-pig' photo could be one that has received only minimal marks and is selected by the site administrator.
Just a thought.



Aaron Whitney Aaron Whitney reply on #18 from Graham Hk Thu 3 Jul 2003 22:43

#19 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

I think that would be a really fun addition to the site! I would love to see what all of us would be doing with the exact same photo!



Thorbjorn Hansen Thorbjorn Hansen reply on #1 from Don Jette Tue 7 Oct 2003 22:43

#20 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

And then to all those giving low marks just to give them (and their friends?) better chance of rising in overall statistics, I just say good luck and hope you "win" smile

Regards Thorbjшrn



Aaron Whitney Aaron Whitney reply on #1 from Don Jette Sun 26 Oct 2003 21:27

#21 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

I think this is a problem for all of us. I just posted an idea about having the system throw out you highest and lowest scores. Then, doing the math. I really think that would help out. As Sandra said, it is most of the time just one jerk that messes things up. By watching very carefully who is on and when ratings come in, I have caught a couple people doing this (one can never be sure) so I didn't do anything about it. Sometimes I just wonder why these people are on here, they seem to not know, or care about photography and improving. When burns my bacon is in the discussion area when someone hits you with a minus number, then you look at thier gallery and they 1. just signed on that week. 2. have only posted one or two photos. 3. The photos they did post would not carry a 4 in the ratings section. I would think you would want to look, listen and learn, before making a fool out of yourself. Thats my vent for the year. Thanks for listening.



Bernd Ratfisch Bernd Ratfisch reply on #21 from Aaron Whitney mon 27 Oct 2003 08:10

#22 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Hi Aaron,

I don't think, that new users, giving some low points in the discussion, is really a problem. It might be boring, if it hits you. But I think, new users must have a chance to look around and see the standards, everyone here is making. When I was a newby in this community, I remeber, that I first gave average points for photographs, I today would point +9. The reaction of the users, who first pointed my own pics, let me think about this...

Regards! Bernd



reply on #1 from Don Jette Fri 28 Nov 2003 02:22

#23 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

As rating without merit is an indisputable fact,we all agree,
my humble proposition is:

1.
Excluding 2-4 extreme rates,
calculating median from rest!
(At least problem would be eventually smaller,
and result far more objective)

2.
Administration should appoint on a weekly base
a certain number (2-4) of high profile listing photographers
(if possible alternatively)
whose rating will count 2-3 times more than usual!

3.
both

Thanks for hospitality
regards



Peter Holz Peter Holz reply on #1 from Don Jette Fri 28 Nov 2003 13:22

#24 Re: Ratings without merit ! closed

Didn’t want really get involved with this argument coz is childish and of no real consequence to the professional photographer , but like anything in life photography sometimes gives a visual impact.

No matter how bad or good your works is there is always someone that could write an essay about it and if you get offended or molested by what someone without real photographic knowledge only means that the viewer has no idea a what is he looking at and should not upset your stomach.



updated: 19:34